another pathfinding problem

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  • #12549
    matrix
    Participant

    the problem is with routes that have intermediate stops at the same place in both directions. something like A->B->C->B

    if a person/cargo needs to get from intermediate stop B to C, he/it will also jump on a vehicle going from B to A! so it will travel B->A->B->C to get from B to C. this clearly needs a fix and should be an easy one.

    this thing messes up with point-to-point bus routes in cities.

    also I once had a cargo train line A->B->C, where C was raw material, A an industry, B a city. stop C was right near the raw material, but still the game found a road from raw material to the stop B in the city and sent materials there “on foot”, which took probably 5 minutes. only for them to travel from B back to C, and only then to the industry A. clearly that increased total travel for raw materials and decreased profits for me. that was the first time I had to remove a road in that game..

    I doubt the developers are going to see that, but anyway. Has anyone else had this issue or am I doing something wrong?

    • This topic was modified 6 years, 2 months ago by matrix.
    #12614
    crossmr
    Participant

    Yes, it’s a serious problem. I reported it on the steam forums and had no end to the fanboys telling me how the game is perfect and it must be a figment of my imagination

     

    #12618
    NLTops
    Participant

    @matrix

    Not sure if this helps but it’s worth a try. I noticed your route goes City-Industry-Raw Materials. I generally start the route at the raw materials for logical sake. If the route is as described, the train will pickup goods at the industry (which it can’t unload at C, but has to keep till A). If the type is wood (uses same carts for raw and goods) the train can’t be filled with goods.

    In the case you describe I don’t see why any of the stations need to recur in the route’s list. C-B-A would be the correct order. not C-B-A-B. And even then I find it more effective using two lines, at least until production picks up enough to use more trains.

    #12625
    matrix
    Participant

    @NLTops

    actually, my route goes industry->city->raw material, just like you suggest. without an intermediate stop on the way back from raw material to industry. you probably misread my ABCs 🙂

    the problem is that raw material finds its long way to the city and get picked up there (after the goods from the industry are dropped) just to travel by train to the station right near the origin of the raw material, and only then to the industry.

    #12632
    NLTops
    Participant

    Hmmm. I get your issue now. Could still be the issue I said (incorrect order in the route list).
    But it could be different,
    So to give it context:
    A=Industry, B=City, C=Raw Materials.
    Route order is A-B-C.
    Raw materials walk from C to B; then get picked up by train at B and not dropped off at C, but at A.
    The line between B and C is therefor obsolete, the trains waste profit by driving this part.

    If I were to make a guess, I’d say the time it takes to wait at station C before being picked up is longer than the time it takes to walk to station B. Because the round trip is equally long from each station, it needs a way to pick one if you (in this case: the Devs) don’t want to use a “just pick one” with a random-generator. Since making routing choices logical is one of the points this game wanted to bring, they have picked one of the following two methods:

    Line order (When chosing between two (or more) stations where the total travel time is the same, pick the station that is serviced before the other(s)).
    This is why I asked to switch the order around, if it makes no difference in delivery time, they might go to the first station in the route list after the final destination(A), which in your list would be B. Because B will always be serviced before C on the line’s direction.

    Closer to final destination(In which case it will also always go to B)
    This would be a cheap method, because it doesn’t take into account the route length, whether the route is direct or indirect. They most likely havn’t picked this method. But your example makes it testable.

    If switching the line order doesn’t change anything, I can’t imagine the following option not working.
    I think if you seperate the two (into C-A and A-B), the problem will likely go away.
    Because this creates a seperate frequency time for the C-A and B-(through C)-A options, rather than the travel time and frequency time both being exactly the same.

    #12655
    crossmr
    Participant

    This happens with only passenger trains as well. I have A B C B passenger trains and people will still be staying on the train at A and C when its the end of the line and no reason for them to be staying on. It’s completely broken.

     

    #12758
    gGeorg
    Participant

    1. you are paid for the length of route the unit has passed. (unit = cargo, raw mats, passanger)
    2. algorithm in this game doesnt count price of the route, only time is considered
    3. the route mus be finished in about 20 minutes (22,5 )

    – therefore, the unit wants to ride on your train rather than stand at station until train with shorter route comes. It’s proper behavior.

    Keep these 3 thinks in your mind when create your traffic networks.

    I know its weird but consider this statement:
    short line from coal mine to factory who use tunnel makes less money than long route along the hills.

    Tip>>>Most profitable line is a fast going train on a long route (loading waste time) who leaves full from the stations.

    Pathing works properly.

    If you want to have more “logical” behavior of units (passengers, cargo),  we need ask developers for add money and air distance to the equation. Well such a change cause that many users will be disappointed cose their networks suddenly start loose money. I guess that such a deep change could be part of a paid expansion only. So every customer who get the new system will start a new map.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 2 months ago by gGeorg.
    #12760
    matrix
    Participant

    @gGeorg,

    I don’t really understand what you mean. I think your point 1 is not correct, the price is calculated by the straight distance between loading and unloading points. At least that comes from my experience, straighter routes are making more money. And here: http://www.train-fever.com/forums/topic/how-is-the-price-for-goods-and-passengers-calculated/

    But it is not even the question of price. If waiting at the station gets you in the same or better time to your destination, you should wait and not waste the space on the vehicle. At least that’s how real people/cargo behave *usually*. So I don’t agree it is a proper behavior. While you’re not playing the winter mod where agents might get cold waiting… 🙂

    #12773
    gGeorg
    Participant

    ” I think your point 1 is not correct, the price is calculated by the straight distance between loading and unloading points.” I am sorry, your statement is not correct.  Try that, you will find something else.

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