Increasing Line Capacity With Passing Loops

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  • #3409
    Steve
    Participant

    @Stonelouse, placing signals outside of the loop will essentially cause traffic to back up on the single line section, if the loop is occupied, which you don’t want. You always want the single line to remain clear unless there’s a slot for it to go to in the next passing loop.

    Consider this scenario, you have a train coming along the line from direction A (on your diagram), as well as a train coming from direction F. However, you also have trains stopped at both the platforms in the loop. As you can probably figure, all your trains are now in stalemate and neither can move unless you reverse the direction of either the trains at directions A and F to clear the section.

    In a real world situation you have intelligent drivers who generally have block tokens that give them priority to enter single line sections. In Train Fever, you don’t have that luxury.

    Hope this helps πŸ™‚

    #3428
    Stonelouse
    Participant

    have you actually tried that out in train fever? because if that happens they should improve the signalling so that a train is only allowed on the single line section if it is clear till the next passing loop.

    oh damnit i would love to experiment with this…all the waiting is becoming unbearable. πŸ˜‰

    #3451
    Steve
    Participant

    I haven’t tried it out in Train Fever but it is documented that signals are merely pathing nodes and nothing more than that. Watching videos of Train Fever in operation gives you a good idea what is and what isn’t possible, and I’ve certainly seen a great deal of failures when it comes to proper placement of signals. Hence why I decided to write a couple of guides on signalling based around pathing trains properly to ensure efficient operations.

    Agreed, we do need a much more complex signalling system than is present. However, I personally feel that adding such would push Train Fever outside of its scope of operation. After all, it’s a business simulation at heart and nothing more than that really.

    I’m hoping there is at least some fundamental control over things like signals via script, so a more complex system of operation can be modded to the game further down the line (no pun intended).

    #3471
    Tossi
    Participant

    Sry dude but I came here to bash this guide because the design for the passing loop proposed here is actually bad as it can lead to grid lock with 4 or more trains on the line.

    How is the grid lock possible? Consider situation like this:

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=305167096

    How it should be done properly? Like here:

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=305167731

    This way a train won’t be able to enter single line if there is a train going in the same direction ahead of it.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by Tossi.
    #3474
    Mansen
    Participant

    Make each of the two paths one way and there is no gridlock possible – The trains can only halt in the middle, and only in one direction on either path.

    This is an issue with the game since signals are either “both way trigger” or “one way pass and trigger” – You can’t put a signal at the right side of the track and only have it trigger when a train passes from one direction.

    I use the passing system on most of my starter rails, and on smaller networks where I won’t be using more than 3-4 trains in total. After each station a pass, and then at least one in the middle of the rail (3 or 5 if it’s a really long track to allow for more effective and closer halts)

    #3475
    Tossi
    Participant

    Mansen. Could you explain how there is no gridlock in Diagram 1? It is built exactly as Steve proposed. Or do you not understand this diagram? It seems like not understanding is the case here as you suggest to make signals one way when they are already one way in diagram.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by Tossi.
    #3479
    Mansen
    Participant

    I loaded up a savegame with an example of me using the Pass Loop.

    http://peecee.dk/uploads/082014/Trainz.png

     

    This is just two trains, but I could add another 8 if I wanted to – Each section of rail is restricted until it is clear when a train passes through the next loop on that side.

    Edit: If it’s hard to tell, I have three pass loops. One after each station and one in the middle (where Train A is waiting to be allowed to drive onward)

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by Mansen.
    #3483
    Stonelouse
    Participant

    could you try to make a single line section with a passing loop in the middle that splits up at both ends into two lines each with stations at the end so that you can create 2 lines that share the same single line section. then have lots of trains driving towards that passing loop and then check how they behave using different forms of signalling including realistic signalling as i have shown on the first page of this thread and then make a video of this?

    that would be absolutely awesome and extremely interesting for those interested in rail operations who don’t have the beta!

    oh i wish i had signed up for the beta, the tension is killing me! πŸ˜€

    #3484
    Mansen
    Participant

    Well yes that many trains are going to cause gridlock – But not the kind you’re suggesting where a pass loop is completely clogged up to the point where the trains cannot get out of the jam without manual interference (I.E. trains parked at the single track parts of the pass loop)Β Trains would be halted at pass loops further away, or even their train stations.

    These pass loops are not for major networks with multiple lines, they allow two way passing on smaller networks without having to double track the entire length of the rail. You’re going to need two tracks with pass loops of their own or more at that point. Just like in real life.

    Could we please keep the discussion in one place though? It feels silly responding to you in two places for the same thing. πŸ™‚

    #3485
    douglas
    Participant

    @Mansen: I’m not sure I understood your point but the game does allow a signal to only trigger at one direction. The signal is only valid for one side. Signals must always be putted in the side of direction. If the track is both ways, and you put the signal to the right, it will trigger for trains going in the direction of the signal.

    So in your screenshot, you can allow trains to be more effective, just put more signals, but since its a single track, they must be in one direction in other to not block the other direction.

    #3487
    Stonelouse
    Participant

    mansen,

    no we are not talking about the same thing in two threads. one is about the way most lets players play this game (who sadly hardly ever use single lines with passing loops), this is about the signalling logic of train fever which really interests me since i’m a real train driver. πŸ˜‰

    what you’ve just desribed is exactly what i would love to see in video because i specifically would like to know where the gridlock builds up. the way steve earlier described the signalling logic would lead to trains entering a single line section from two sides if there were signal blocks along the single line section, which would be a catastrophy really.

    the way you describe it means that train fever signalling is aware of the single line section and holds trains back from using it if trains couldn’t clear it, which would be terrific.

    #3488
    Tossi
    Participant

    Again Mansen you are not understanding? How do I see it you are not understanting? You gave example with two trains when I stated that you would need at last 4 of them to see that the design is bad but can be improved by modifying it like on the diagram I posted.

    #3490
    Mansen
    Participant

    Well first of all putting any signals on the single track would only cause instant gridlock – Each train would keep going through the signals of its direction until they would come face to face at a signal in both directions. No way out of it.

    And as far as the one direction signals go, I have never been able to make them trigger only in one direction. Every time I connect up a new line to an existing on at the sides, the trains stop at the signals intended for the opposite direction, blocking off the entire network.

    Like I already said, Tossi – Your “fix” is just two loops after each other. The exact same thing I showed in my screenshot earlier.

     

    Edit: I give up. We’re obviously not on the same page here – You’ll just have to wait till the game releases and see if you can prove me wrong. (At which point this guide would simply be corrected)

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by Mansen.
    • This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by Mansen.
    #3493
    Stonelouse
    Participant

    ok, now i guess i understood you better. that should mean however that it doesn’t matter whether “entry” signals are placed before a loop or at the beginning of it, gridlock could happen in both situations. in that case only “exit” signals shall be used.

    #3494
    Mansen
    Participant

    Ah ffs… what is it with this forum and not allowing edits after a few minutes.

    You’re right – I’m too sleepy to make a proper argument. I managed to cause gridlock finally with several million worth in trains on my network. The loops need to lose the “entry” signal at both ends, or trains will make a stop right in the middle of the trackchange section (The V shape where the rail splits in two)

    http://peecee.dk/uploads/082014/passloop.jpg

    Think I managed to show the issue using the original diagram – All of the signals will make a train drive right up to it and make a halt until the way is clear. This causes a gridlock with enough trains using four signals. The solution to that is to simply get rid of the entry signals so the trains only make a stop “inside” of the loop, leaving the exits clear at either side.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by Mansen.
    • This reply was modified 6 years, 6 months ago by Mansen.
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